NEW HW LADDER :)

[Recce]

I was thinking right now that this B-league ladder thing is an opportunity that the ladder admins missed long ago. How many players don't want to join ladder because they get raped by the same old top 5 players?

Having said that, in addition, if you find yourself losing a lot of games in A-league you won't feel as bad, because attempting to play A-league carries some prestige in itself.

[Sutts]

you call it the B league but there is still some skilled players there; suashoh, ThorHoH, Ahab ( although nobody likes him... hes no n00b) JasonHoH ? ? n00bs i dont think so :\

but as said before, i think a merge would be good

[Remux]

aye

[shutupandshave]

A merge was something that I have been thinking about, and had even gone so far as to mention to molle that i would like a word with him. (molle, this is what I wanted to speak to you about). However, it would not easily address the problem that people are unhappy with some of the old admins.

Yes it would have been more difficult to make the old ladder popular than the new ladder, however, my difficulty to get along with some of the old ladder admins, and the kind of response I get from many users of the FL/Guidestone forums has been less than amicable, and as these are the people that are most influential, it think it would have been counter-productive to have tried to post anything about that here. I know I have tried to get people to play ladder games. Searching through the users that have recently joined up, and people that have not played for a while, playing maps from OK Coral to Reliance, to Subj. Also as a side note, other people read these forums, and although you may not agree with a lot of the things I say, I know a lot of people do, and they understand what I am trying to say, however they worry about posting here because of the kind of reponse I get from you guys.

I know that joe, and some fORNAX and YD would be upset about losing their skill ratings, and stats, but you have to ask yourself whether you are trying to run the ladder for ex-regular HW players, or for the current HW players, because from what I have seen, the majority of the people that have strong opinions about this, seem to want to run it for old players. Now, I don't really know many of the old HW greats, which is unfortunate, as I really wish I had. But I think if they really loved the game, they would want something that made the game more active, and that is really what the new hw ladder is all about.

"Now you're trying to get everyone on to a new ladder that is a total twin of the old ladder except in the HOF"

This is not true. The new ladder has some differences. People are being actively encouraged to play 2 vs 2 maps. You can play people twice a day (to eliminate the "i will host" syndrome), the 3 standard ladder maps change regularly, so put the emphasis on SKILL and not the ability to learn a map. It would have been unheard of for people not to play 1 vs 1's on a ladder, but I know a lot of players don't like playing 1 vs 1's, sometimes because of computer problems, sometimes because they don't like the pressure, but I am more than happy for peopel to never play a 1 vs 1 game on the new ladder.

"most of the players on the new ladder are noobs who couldn't get anywhere on the old ladder and I personally feel very strongly that they do not deserve any position on the old ladder until they have deserved it."

I think this is the kind of attitude that put people playing off the old ladder to begin with. I don't want an elitest ladder, where people get accused of being noobs because they're not high up. I want a ladder where people at the bottom of the ladder want to work their way up, without fear of persecution. I think this is a very unkind statement. Almost all the very skilled players have been new players on the ladder at some time.

"Isn't it funny that the triple wall/subj guys went and started a new ladder because they said they were tired of triple wall and subj ??? Makes ya wonder why they didn't just play another map, right?"
I am guessing this is just another dig at me. I play other maps, I have played other maps, and I will continue to play other maps. There are no other "triple wall/subj guys" that have started this ladder. This is something I have done off of my own back, because so many people had asked me too.

"Making the new ladder is actually the coward's way out if you look at it in a certain light. It would have taken months of hard, hard work to get the old ladder back into shape after it got destroyed by the Triple Wall/Subj guys. but it only took about 15 mins to set up the new ladder. heh, easy way out if not the coward's. "
"Saus would have had less trouble getting people on the old ladder to play the new maps then he's gonna have starting the new one"
Please make up your mind. Apparently, I am lazy for not re-starting the old ladder because it would've been easier, however I'm lazy for making a new ladder?

"If saus purely wanted to make the HW ladder more enjoyable he'd have increased the activity of ol' faithful "
This may be true for you guys, however, the 30 or so ranked players on the old ladder, and 15-20 that have played but are unranked would be evidence enough to disagree with you. These people didn't want to join the old ladder because they didn't like it...they didn't find it enjoyable.

"I fail to see why a new ladder had to be created because saus thor and fotek refuse to play anything but "triple wall on subj". "
I fail to see why a new ladder had to be created because of that either. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the statement is untrue. I play lots of different maps, and I think the current ladder players would be agree with me.

"I won't join new ladder because there are known cheaters on it. I trust molle, frisk, faxe and metho to weed out the cheaters. "
I believe that everyone deserves a second chance, and if people cheat on this ladder, they will get kicked and/or banned. However Banshee, just coming onto won for a while (and not smurfing), even if you don't play any games would be a good initial step forwards.

Most importantly...
"Spliting the community ONLY hurts it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "
Yes, splitting the community DOES only hurt it, but this new ladder has unified the community more than it has split it. There are players now laddering that would never had laddered on the old ladder, and people playing 2 vs 2 games with people they would never have. Hopefully, in the future, people will stop bitching and critising, and start encouraging, and that will only strengthen the HW community. Please bear in mind that when I talk about the HW community, I am referring to people that play HW, not that PLAYED HW.

"What I'm saying is that ALL of the THOUSANDS of current and past HW players know the existing ladder admins and I personally trust them to protect their legacy, which includes the HOF. "
I dont doubt that's true, but I think that the majority of the current HW players would like something different, and the sheer fact that the new ladder has 29 people ranked, and all but 4 of those, with a streak, goes to prove that people also wanted something different.

"So.. until Ky-SAR and Doom (whoever they are) get some more recognition in the community they won't get onto the old ladder."
These two players have a lot of recognition from current players. They have both been playing HW for longer than I have. These are heads of two of the most active clans in HW at the moment, and have been running in this time ladders that are more active than the current HW ladder, and have been for a while.

"GriffinSLS C - League is more like it i think hehehehe."
Griffin, if you want to insult mine, or Jason's skills, it would be wise to find yourself an ally, and meet us on won. If you think we are C league material, you really have not been playing HW for so long, that I think your whole opinion is irrelevant.

"So what's the solution. This new ladder shows that there's always been a need for a B-league HW ladder."
I think if you think that people would want to play on a HW ladder called the B-league you are very much mistaken. Instead, I think you should take the emphasis off of getting to the top, and put it on being above your friends, and having fun. That may well be what the old ladder was originally intended to be like, but people's attitudes towards it have changed.

"Public opinion of players will prevent rapists from bullying noobs on the B-League ladder. In other words, wouldn't you look kind of silly if you've occupied the #1 spot on B-League ladder for 6 months and not moved up to the A-league."
Unfortunately, some of these players are not welcome on the old ladder, which is entirely their doing, and I completely agree with the ladder admins decisions to kick them.

"If someone on that list decides to come back to the game are they really gonna want to come back to a new ladder? Heh, No."
I don't understand, are you saying it is important to keep the old on the "If" of people coming back. I personally believe it is more important to cater for the 100 or so current HW players.

These are not all necessarily my opinions but they are the opinions of the people that are currently playing HW, lots of which have talked to me about this.
I for one would not want a merge, because I would be accused of bullying my way onto the admin list, however, as people would want me as an admin, they wouldn't switch over ladders.
Why would the current ladder admins want to merge with the old ladder when nobody seems to know (or care) who they are?

I think some of you guys should climb down off of your high-horses and realise what is happening. Some current HW players have decided to create a new HW ladder. Everyone is welcome, and the emphasis is going to try to be on fun. It is not a popularity contest, even though some people have been trying to make it so. It's a new ladder. If people thought it was a stupid idea, they wouldn't have joined. But they have, and they continue to do so. Why bother putting it down when people obviously want it. I think it is these attitudes that are FAR more detrimental to HW.

[Molle]

The admins of the ladder has said very little.

1. It splits up the current ladder community.

2. There has always been a need or a teamladder or a clanladder, all previous attempts has failed.

3. "Merging" the "new" ladder with the "old" ladder will never be possible since the "new" ladder has ppl playing which are currently on banlist on the "old" ladder. And no, no one will probably be banned for life. Ban stands til further notice in some cases, most are reviewed at players request. Some will have a VERY tough time convincing the admins to lift the bans for VERY good reasons.

4. If anyone has a problem with a admin, it should be discussed with me foremost since I am the head admin. No one has discussed any matters about other admins with me.

5. The ladder is there for the community. "New" grips, "new" rules or anything to make the "old" ladder more "fun" is welcomed. NONE has been recieved from the "new" ladder creators. NO ONE has discussed the need of a "new" ladder with me, or the other admins of my knowledge.

6. We cannot, nor will not rule out the most popular maps out there. Yes, we can suggest new maps or force people to play certain maps, but we believe this is the players choice, not the admins choice.

7. "New" rule "allowing 2 games per day" is possible with "old" ladder. Many of us have been playing best of three lots of times to get a win.

Lastly, yes, you did hint something to the effect that we needed to talk, since that time i have heard nothing at all. My mail is known to everyone and I have recieved no word whatsoever.

So tell me.. what do you want from the "old ladder" to "merge" your new ladder with it?

[frstkor13]

reki asked a question in the thread made on the Relic Entertainment Inc. fora which was:

so.. explain to us how this ladder is different from the current singles ladder?

you didn't answer this question.

so besides from the new admins its essentially the same? it looks just like the old ladder to me, thor sitting at the top with a total of 3 games played, none in the last 3 days. isn't he your teammate who got kicked off for reporting losses to himself? or was that just to dirty the old ladder?

im wondering, why didnt you just get ppl exited about playing on different maps in the first place? when the ladder had 200+ ppl on it(a year before you even played this game), i played more games on moonbase and mystic than subj and talas, and i distinctly remember you being one of the ppl who bitched about having to play on other maps besides subjugate a few months ago. I would still not have a problem playing on other maps, just as a great percentage of ppl in the HoF would not mind playing on other maps. I fear this whole thing is a suas ploy for power after a couple of his buddies, most notably thor were kicked from the current ladder for cheating.

this new ladder wreaks of the same problems that has plagued the old one, only you are harboring the plague and cloaking it with a new stench. there was no need for a new ladder.

imminent failure.

[Kushan]

however, my difficulty to get along with some of the old ladder admins, and the kind of response I get from many users of the FL/Guidestone forums has been less than amicable, and as these are the people that are most influential, it think it would have been counter-productive to have tried to post anything about that here

suas your idiocy never fails to amaze me. did it ever occur to u that mayb they treat u like crap becuz u insulted then all, called them all racists homophobes elitists pricks ect ect ect? as for this new ladder, it looks to me that u wanted thor and a few other cheaters to be able to play again, and a personal power grab.

also, do u really expect ppl with any brains to play/support on a ladder with suas and clip as admins? last time i checked suas was a idiot, and clippy was a immature 15 year old with serious problems. or expect them to play on the ladder with ppl like dk chata and redstar? or that idot farscape...


[edit] aslso about the FL insulting u when u post on these forums, i noticed that when canada666 (i think) posted a flame @ reaver, all the HSC jumped all over canada AND 666, calling 666 all fags newbies ect, and u sided with the HSC flaming all of 666. and imo reaver had it coming, he did post a rather insulting egotistical post on 666 boards. so uhm... stfu hypocrit [/edit]

[shutupandshave]

Kushan:

"[edit] aslso about the FL insulting u when u post on these forums, i noticed that when canada666 (i think) posted a flame @ reaver, all the HSC jumped all over canada AND 666, calling 666 all fags newbies ect, and u sided with the HSC flaming all of 666. and imo reaver had it coming, he did post a rather insulting egotistical post on 666 boards. so uhm... stfu hypocrit [/edit]"

Once again Kushan, you are wrong. Not mistaken, but wrong. I have never insulted the 666 on their boards, or, to my knowledge on mine. I personally emailed Reaver/Remux and asked them to calm down, and on the HSC private board expresively denounced my involvement, and suggested they leave the 666 alone, also I spoke to Doom, and God about it, telling them that I wanted nothing to do about it, and suggested many different ways to diffuse the situation as much as possible. Whether in part by my involvement, or not. Things HAVE calmed down. Not that it really has ANYTHING to do with you.

I don't like fighting.

I didn't start the ladder because of thor or any others. I told thor that I would be watching him closer than most, however, I know him and genuinely believe he is sorry for what he did.

If you don't think people should join the ladder, why did you? If you didn't join the ladder to play, did you own join to post messages on the forum? Were any of your posts polite, or were they all insults? I think people need to ask if you're a troublemaker...

If you don't like the fact I am a ladder admin, then don't play. I think that calling me an idiot is a little untrue though, but that is just my opinion.

I thought people would enjoy the chance to start playing with some of the people that were no longer on the new ladder. I repeat that I will not tolerate cheating on our new ladder.

I am sorry that old ladder admins treat me like crap (your words) however, I think they would rather speak for themselves. As far as my previous posts are concerned, I made a full public apology for those, when metho asked me to read through them. I myself thought they were out of order.

Frst:
I had answered that question on so many forums, including this one, that I failed to see the need to repeat myself. However, I apologise to reki for not answering his post on the relic forum.

As you tend to have your facts all screwed, and/or don't really listen to anything I say I'll try repeating myself, if that doesn't work, I'll ask someone else to post for me, but here goes.

1) The new ladder has different standard ladder maps, and these rotate every month. I know that in the old ladder's past, people didn't only play the standard maps, but for the last few months, there have only been a handful of players that have tried any variation, myself, unreal, blood (that I know of). People ARE playing the new maps far more than they are playing the old maps. People CAN play other maps than the 3 I recommend, however people have realised that if they go along with 3 different maps each month, it will take the emphasis off of map learning and keep it on skill.
2) People are now allowed to play each other 2 times a day. This is because there were a lot of complaints about people always hosting. I know I always wanted to host for a while. With this new rule it gives a) the opportunity for people to BOTH host in a series of two ladder games, completely voiding the "I will host" problem. It also allows people to have a 2 vs 2 ladder, and then a 1 vs 1 ladder with the same people. This makes for a lot more variation.
3) I am trying to take the emphasis away from being number one and encouraging people just to do the "best they can".
4) New ladder admins mean a different fresh attitude to the game. I really DO think I realise the kind of work that the old admins have put into their ladder, and I am thankful of it. I don't necessarily like them all, and they don't necessarily like me, but I am appreciative of the work they have put into the HW community in the past. However, I and many others believe it is time that the ladder was admined by people that are active on HW.

Now, I think these are pretty major changes to the ladder. I doubt you will agree, but try and look to see the implications of these rule changes. The changes are a culmination of suggestions over the last 2 or 3 months, and they seem to be very favourable with the HW community (people that play HW).

As for it being a power ploy by me,I disagree. And to be honest (and molle can reply to this) I believe that if I spoke to him (molle), perhaps with Thor, and explained how sorry thor was about what he did, he would have been let back onto the old ladder. I believe he would have been, although perhaps before he made that post to Metho... So why on earth I would've made a new ladder just to make Thor happy is beyond me.

Perhaps the new ladder DOES reek of the same problems that dogged the previous ladder, however, I don't know what these problems are. If it's inactivity, I don't think we have that problem (and that was the major problem with the old ladder), if it's disliking some of the ladder admins, and resentment about being administrated by players that are no longer HW players (Molle, I know you're VERY active ) then I also think it's untrue. If it's cheating, then I am yet to see any evidence of that?

If the new ladder is going to fail then ask yourself why it has so many active members, about 10 fold more than the old ladder has had for a long time.

Molle:
I would very much like to speak to you about these things, but without being surrounded by people chanting for my blood, and telling me whatever I am going to do will fail. Apparently I am a liar, for forgetting I transferred RU's to Jason in a game. I forgot. What possible reason would I have to lie about it. I hardly cared. I would've been more than happy to admit I transferred a million ru's to him if it were true. I am also a liar because I said that the BIB hated frst. That was my fault, however, leaving aside what I should've said was nothing about the BIB, I should've said that all the BIB's I spoke to didn't like frst. I am naming no names, and I know that some of them would say one think to him, and one think to me, perhaps because they are worried about the reaction he tends to give... Hardly someone that is easy to critisise. However, if I am a liar for that, then so is Kushan, because he clearly said that ALL the old HW players hate me, or think I am a complete f4g or something, Unreal, Frisky, You, Blood, Apollo but to name a few. Unreal himself has told me he doesn't.

Lets start playing by the same rules eh? I'm a liar for saying the BIB hate frst and you shun me. I admit I made a mistake, however I still have a stupid avatar by name, and was branded publically as a chronic liar for some time. Why not do the same to Kushan? Why not ban him from your channels, and insult him whenever he posts on almost any forum?

[Kushan]

suas ur post is almost funny..... where did i say u insulted 666? i said u SIDED with them insulting 666. here is a quote from u in that thread....

3) you're all f4gs. Sept those I luff, which is all HSC, and I'll fight anyone, except kush that disagrees

u should be careful what u post suas, it can be misleading.

If you don't think people should join the ladder, why did you? If you didn't join the ladder to play, did you own join to post messages on the forum? Were any of your posts polite, or were they all insults? I think people need to ask if you're a troublemaker...

i already told u i only joined to post on ur ladder, so why ask this. my only intent early on was to reply to farscape (1 post). it was insulting yes, but then again so was farscaped on the real ladder.... as for being a trouble maker, i think u have known me long enuff to know i rarely make posts like that. farscapre REALLy pissed me off, pissed me off enuff to actually reply to him.

I am sorry that old ladder admins treat me like crap (your words)

ah suas, i really wonder if what u r smoking, it seems highly effective. i replied to what u said, about being insulted ON THE GS FORUMS. did i say they treated u like crap on the ladder?

However, if I am a liar for that, then so is Kushan, because he clearly said that ALL the old HW players hate me, or think I am a complete f4g or something, Unreal, Frisky, You, Blood, Apollo but to name a few. Unreal himself has told me he doesn't.

suas u idiot why post this? i explained this to u on irc, i never once stated on that they all thot u were a complete fag, and i never once mentioned frisky. and i never said all the old HW players. i said that alot of old HW players thot u weer a fag, and later apologised for being to general, and that most of them didn't think u were a fag, but had issues with u.


[edit] o and the reason fl won't ban me from irc and insult me on the forums, is 1. i did not insult all of FL with baseless and highly insulting accusations. i also didn't piss most of the ppl on irc off constantly, enuff for them to say "lol" if i was put on perma ban.

[shutupandshave]

Kushan, almost all you said was untrue.
I am not willing to enter a flame war on boards that are not mine. Sorry. If you count that as a win, then so be it. I don't care enough about your opinion anymore to be bothered, also I don't smoke, you do. Please don't accuse me of that, or assume that I am as enlightened as you are in the ways of being completely wrong.

[Post will probably be changed to something more insulting so I can be shot down for it later]

I NO LONGER CARE.

If you have a problem with me, email me. Don't infect these boards over it.

[frstkor13]

suas, once again, I did not put a custom title or a custom avatar under your name, and I don't know who did.

[ridock]

Personally I think the new ladder is just a plot to disrupt the current ladder for personal reasons.Thats only what I think though...

[soul]

Actually i ban kushan daily but the dolt keeps sending me sexxxy pics of chics through email, so his bans never last. What can i say i am week.


soul.

[Lex SLS]

Kush send me pics or i will ban you aswell

[shutupandshave]

"suas, once again, I did not put a custom title or a custom avatar under your name, and I don't know who did."
Once again frst, I didn't accuse you of doing that. I heard you the first time. If you look, it was actually under Molle's section, however it was just a general comment, aimed at whomever did.

Please frst, don't comment on what I have to say until you're willing to read it first.

Ridock: Once again, thx for the support.
With only a handful of regular players when I started the new ladder, was it really possible to disrupt it that much?